Where's Management?

[Rahul Parkar]

Ira,

If I missed out on that being your main point, I apologize... He does pose a good question, and even I had some curiosity so you're not alone

Rahul

[Dan Leavitt]

Tom is spot on - It is a valid question to see where his management is, in the real world, we wouldn't want employees working for someone that they didn't see, know, or hear from once in awhile.

What are your needs or is it just a general question as to being visible?

@Dan - Not sure how your posting is helping the question by posting something like "This is what VATUSA management does"  How does that help?

Jeff, I am simply trying to help a member find an answer to his question. Whether his question is valid or not, is a completely different thing. I am simply telling what I have observed in my 2 years on VATSIM. Not necessarily whether I'm right or wrong with these views, whether they're "valid" observations or not, is up to each individual. Just putting in what I've seen over the past 2 years of VATSIM. Additionally, I've only been at 1 ARTCC, and have seen 3 DD's. So my view may be narrow, and not apply to everyone, but from what I've observed and experienced is what I use when I write.

DL

[Kevin Kan]

VATSIM is a game go control and fly. If you want to be management go get a job so you can get paid.

[Gary Millsaps]

I can put this rather simply. Aside the private agendas and undertones of animosity (from heaven knows what sources), I can assure everyone that VATUSA management is doing their damn job. We may not be doing it the way YOU want or desire it be done but it is being done the way I deem is in the best interest of the Division.

Is it perfect? No.
Will it be perfect? No.
Will it make everyone happy? No.

But then again gentlemen, THIS IS A HOBBY....those of you who feel the need to speak with such indignant voices, try email; forum baiting has never proven an effective m/o.

(BTW, here's a lightning bolt for those who bring up mandatory hours and roster removals, etc...neither I nor the Division set any minimal hourly requirements for anyone. You set those yourselves - suggest you either revise them or get over it.)

On that note, I hope everyone has a great New Year.

[Scott DeWoody]

WOW....  oooh saaaa people.  I took Alan's question as a simple one, which I tried to answer, without pointing any fingers I might add.  

[Alan Dubois]

OK, some interesting responses.

Bryan and Scott, thanks for your honest answers, didn't think of that.

Rahul, thanks for seeing that my question(s) are genuine.

Tom, not sure what you're deal is, accusing me of anything is/was out of line.  I was simply asking a question because even though I don't control (for a reason), I do frequent both this and the VATSIM forums, and try to keep a feel of the network.  I just don't see some of the people that move up in the ranks around to "manage" their people, which makes no sense to me.  I'll explain.  VATSIM as I see it, is a network for people to come online and enjoy the hobby of either flying, or controlling, or both, online in a network where there is interaction with others, so if you are not going to fly, or control, what is the purpose of being here, kind of defeats the purpose.

Jeff, I have/had no specific need, I was just asking a question, that I perceived as valid, because I don't see the upper management as doing anything once they are upper management. Sure, I realize that there are alot of "behind the scenes" projects and such that takes their time, but again, what's the point of being here if you're not going to fly or control?

As far as me not controlling, I have no desire to control, I fly, because that's what I enjoy doing, I belong to a VA that I enjoy, very little politics there, unlike the controlling side.  I do however enjoy the interaction with ATC,  THAT is why I am here.  My intention here was not to "get a rise", although it appears that it has.

Gary, your post is honest, I can appreciate that, and you must be doing everything at VATUSA yourself, you've been back awhile now, but still no USA2, 3, and some other positions, I can see why you're not "online" controlling or flying that much, but is that the way it should be?  Almost like "if I want it done, I'll do it myself", but hey, you are the man, and can run USA as you see fit, just makes no sense to me, how can that be enjoyable?

So there, I've spoken for myself, thanks to those who saw my question as genuine, and to those that don't, I'm thinking you need a reality check in this virtual world.

Happy New Year to all!

[Tom Seeley]

Tom, not sure what you're deal is, accusing me of anything is/was out of line.  I was simply asking a question because even though I don't control (for a reason), I do frequent both this and the VATSIM forums, and try to keep a feel of the network.  I just don't see some of the people that move up in the ranks around to "manage" their people, which makes no sense to me.  I'll explain.  VATSIM as I see it, is a network for people to come online and enjoy the hobby of either flying, or controlling, or both, online in a network where there is interaction with others, so if you are not going to fly, or control, what is the purpose of being here, kind of defeats the purpose.

While that more or less expands the original question, there are some suppositions in it that don't carry much weight. And until you've had a good hard look at the responsibilities that those selected to staff what you term management positions have to deal with, to suggest that they aren't effective because they're not visible to you is a pretty big reach. A large quantity of the daily business that affects the ATM's in my region goes through me ... and in the case of some ARTCC's, it is voluminous. Bearing in mind that all these folks have real world jobs or other responsibilities, and considering the seriousness with which we conduct the selection process, we are truly fortunate to have quality candidates step up to demonstrate their willingness to take these jobs. That they aren't then as visible as you might like is inconsequential to their functions. "ATM burnout" is common in this network, and it stems in large part to the mind-numbing constant workload on those occupying the position. It is evidence of the demand placed upon them, and in and of itself refutes the perception that they must be inactive if they are not "visible".

My "deal" is respect and admiration for those who take on the responsibilities of maintaining this network and all it entails.

[Richard Jenkins]

Alan,

Perhaps you could talk to Scott about the duties of ATM's and the various staff since you know each other? Might shed some light on why some have to make decisions on where to spend their time.

Richard

[Salvatore Barcia]

As long as they're doing their job, I don't see why it matters if they're on the network or not. As a DATM, the work load can be heavy, and sometimes I don't have the extra time to log onto the network. I can't even imagine the upper managements workload. I think we should back off and give them some room to breath.

[Scott DeWoody]

Alan,

Perhaps you could talk to Scott about the duties of ATM's and the various staff since you know each other? Might shed some light on why some have to make decisions on where to spend their time.

Richard

What are you trying to say Richard?  Yes, Alan and I are friends, what's that have to do with his questions?

[Richard Jenkins]

What are you trying to say Richard?  Yes, Alan and I are friends, what's that have to do with his questions?

Since he is strictly pilot side and you do both. Thought it might be reasonable for you to explain what an ATM does on a day to day basis to give him a better insight as to what is going on.

Am I totally out of mind here?

[Luke Kolin]

And until you've had a good hard look at the responsibilities that those selected to staff what you term management positions have to deal with, to suggest that they aren't effective because they're not visible to you is a pretty big reach. A large quantity of the daily business that affects the ATM's in my region goes through me ... and in the case of some ARTCC's, it is voluminous.

I keep hearing about the vast amount of work that the ATMs and VATUSA Divisional Managers do, but it never seems to get detailed. All that I see is "until you've been there, you can't possibly understand" descriptions of the workload. To this lay person, the procedures and areas for coordination between the different ARTCCs don't change very often. VATUSA policy doesn't change very often.

And it's puzzling to me why if we've placed such care and stock into selecting ATMs, why everything needs to go through the layer above. At my job, I and my peers report to a Senior VP who has given us a simple mandate - "agree amongst yourselves before you run it past me, or I will decide for you". He's sufficiently unpredictable to all of us that we are very reluctant to dig our heels in and let the decision go upstairs. We're capable of doing this in a well-known enterprise where we each have seven figure budgets. I can't imagine it's anywhere nearly as hard in VATUSA.

I'm amazed at my job the amounts of effort that people will expend on inefficient, inconsequential tasks to the detriment of what they should be focusing on. I'll have software developers spend hours dealing with an inefficient and frankly stupid build and test cycle, so much that it takes away from hours they should be spending writing good code (or with their families). Having seen a volunteer organization as large or larger than VATUSA with fewer layers of hierarhcy for about a decade now, I remain suspicious of how valid and necessary all the work and procedures are.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]"ATM burnout" is common in this network, and it stems in large part to the mind-numbing constant workload on those occupying the position.[/quote]

Which clearly calls for a ground-up revisitation on just what these ATMs are doing, how necessary it truly is, and whether its consequences are worth it.

Cheers!

Luke

[Scott DeWoody]

Since he is strictly pilot side and you do both. Thought it might be reasonable for you to explain what an ATM does on a day to day basis to give him a better insight as to what is going on.

Am I totally out of mind here?

I've told him my opinions, however, he has a mind of his own, we are friends but don't see eye to eye on alot of issues.....so, while I've never been an ATM, I have been a Deputy Director of a new Division and the co-founder, but I always found time to both control and fly and as a matter of fact, used my time flying to perform my duties as Deputy Director of VATSIM Thailand, just seemed like a good use of my time during those long hauls to work on Division "stuff".  That may be why he asked what he asked.

[Don Desfosse]

David,

Very, very, well put!

[Pan Lalas]

I disagree. Lead by example is my motto. You cannot ask people to control more when you don't control. You cannot remove people for inactivity when you don't meet or barely meet the minimum online time yourself. This network has become an RPG from an aspect. People are making "careers" (usually the kids but sometimes even the older people which is SAD) making a nice collection of signature lines and titles about committees, sub-committees, think-tanks, organizations, sub organizations etc. Title chasers. SAD. A couple of years ago I had a kid admitting "I'm not into controlling or flying. I'm more of an administrative guy". Really? What I keep saying to everybody is that the order of priority when it comes to ATC is Control then Instruct then be an administrator. If you cannot do it, you don't have the time to commit, then step down. I'm 40 yrs old so I may see some things slightly different than the new generations (I'm not that old, but whatever). But let me assure you of this. VATSIM, VATSIM titles, staff positions etc are not something you can actually use in any kind of CV. Behaviors like that take the fun out of the hobby. Don't do it.


Disclaimer: I'm kind out of topic