Where's Management?

[Pan Lalas]

I wasn't referring to tha VATUSA staff but to the ARTCC level. That's why I said that "probably I'm out of topic". I should clarify this but when I did the post, I thought it was obvious. From what I know, at least VATUSA1, is not allowed or is not willing to be an active member in an ARTCC. I think the same should be the case for all the VATUSA positions that are involved in the decision making group of the division but that's another story. So obviously I don't consider as controllers the VATUSA staff.  My bad for not clarifying this.

It appears that another can of worms has been opened though. I belong to the minority of people who don't actually share all this agony about the vacant positions of VATUSA2,3,n,n+1 under the current administration. I don't know what most of those positions mean or what's their job description and to be honest I feel no urge to find it out. As long as the vatusa world keeps spinning and as long as I don't see any bad effect in the daily operations of my ARTCC, I don't  really care. Which makes me wonder about the necessity for the majority of those positions when they were filled.
That's why I have a feeling that most of those positions are simply one more addition to somebody's signature. What's the loss though? Well if you think about it, the division, in some cases only, loses a good controller. No big deal right? I absolutely agree, as long as the individual doesn't feel the need to prove that his new fancy title/signature has the importance that he wants it to have. Because that's where the said individual starts micromanaging. I do have examples, where the bureaucratic structure of vatsim/vatusa has negatively affected the daily ops of my ARTCC. So the question remains. How many of those VATUSAx positions we need to run a division taking into consideration the ARTCC staff member numbers?

Btw, since I mentioned the signatures thing. I'm a professional in the aviation industry and I've never seen so many abbreviations and acronyms in my job as I've seen in VATSIM. The other night I was googling some of the abbreviations I see in a lot of the staff signatures trying to figure out what they represent. I mean... Really?

[Bruce Clingan]

Should staff members at higher levels be held to a different standard than staff members at lower levels?  It's been made clear that the BOG and such have been researching and taking action against ARTCC level staff who don't respond expediently to training requests and such.  What about when senior staff don't respond to emails, update documents or drop the ball?

[Tom Seeley]

The entire VATUSA staff consists of a Director, a Comms guy, an Events guy, and three ATDs. Two are missing: USA2 and Training. Others are handling those duties.

How many of us should resign and walk away to satisfy the concept that staff members are merely title seekers? I mean seriously ... how many of us? And when you've answered that, ask Gary how long he will remain with no support staff.

[Pan Lalas]

I did a fast research. A few years ago VATUSA had 14 staff members. At some point the positions were reduced to 12. Out of those 12 only 8 are now covered. The question still stands. Ain't it weird that the Division runs with no problem at all with 2/3s of the previous scheme? Doesn't this prove that 1/3 of the positions were obsolete and they were serving as a retirement  beach house with a nice view to a fancy title? I'm not looking at specific positions. I'm looking at the required manpower to run the place. I don't know what each of the staff members do. I'm just looking at the numbers. Which brings me to another question. This is happening to VATUSA only or we could extend it , keeping the analogy, to other Divisions, Regions etc?

[Harold Rutila]

In the ARTCCs that do have a solid administrative force, communication with VATUSA ATDs, conflict resolution, and Gary doesn't happen on a very regular occurrence. I think this might contribute to the idea of "What goes on up there?" This is not, however, any reason to suggest that the position is worthless. Based on my experience with transfers who are not being provided adequate training, I can tell you that there is a need for certain enforcement actions on those facilities. That, in my opinion, is the responsibility of the ATDs, and it is a very valid role they must play. But again, going back to the thinking of "Well, I hardly talk to my ATD," this is where some wonder how heavy of a workload that might be. I have no idea more correct than anyone else's; we don't know.

I see VATUSA as an organization that helps the ARTCCs. I don't really see ARTCCs having many problems with that administration. I have a whole different spiel on this topic when it comes to other levels, which is beside the point of this thread (as I can infer from the OP) so I'll leave it out.

[Tom Seeley]

... they were serving as a retirement  beach house with a nice view to a fancy title?

This is just beyond absurd. If VATUSA staff was drawing paychecks or getting ANY OTHER form of compensation, then maybe it would be worth exploring further. But I think it was you yourself who mentioned that so-called fancy titles in this environment cannot go on a CV or resume ... with that in mind, what earthly value is any position here other than to provide administrative services to keep the community functioning? There is positively no benefit to serving as a VATUSA staff member, and in fact it really just means more time committed to the network and less for other things.

The point about less personnel accomplishing the work now simply indicates that fewer are doing the work where others did before. Did we not need a director of training? Did we not need a USA2? I don't have the answers, but I can tell you that their absence simply means more work for others to do, again with zero compensation of any sort. Honestly if you cannot accept David's well thought out post explaining in significant detail why he feels it is appropriate to give back to the community, then you should go forth with your own belief that we're all doing this for some sort of need for prestige, or whatever. It's really gratifying to know that all the effort is appreciated. "I don't know what each of the staff members do." Well then, that must mean they're not doing anything, I guess.

And by the way, VATUSA staff members are not members of any ARTCC. During their quest for fancy titles and opportunities to sit on the porch, they are removed from ARTCCs and are simply HQ Staff.

Please see heavily coveted fancy title below .....

[Luke Kolin]

I don't think that the relatively recent downsizing of the VATUSA staff proves anything in particular.  Was VATUSA overstaffed before?  I don't know, I wasn't there at the time.  When I got hired, a bunch of people left, and we were left to run the place with the people we had.  The workload on each of the staff members increased for a bit, and perhaps in the future the workload might be decreased again by hiring more people to help out - I don't know.  But things change, and different circumstances bring different results.

That may be true, but if different circumstances (fewer staff) bring the same results, the most logical conclusion is that you didn't need so many staff to begin with. It doesn't require multiple advanced degrees to come to this conclusion.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]And to answer your question Bruce, I don't know what happens when VATUSA staff drop the ball because I haven't seen it happen while I've been here.[/quote]

Despite the staff downsizing. QED, I think.

[Luke Kolin]

It's really gratifying to know that all the effort is appreciated. "I don't know what each of the staff members do." Well then, that must mean they're not doing anything, I guess.

I keep asking what an ATD actually does, and I never get a good answer. I asked earlier in the thread, and the silence was deafening. I'm still interested in hearing one, though.

Cheers!

Luke

[Luke Kolin]

Channeling all of those ideas, and helping the ARTCC staff members to achieve their visions, and making sure they are within the guidelines of the Division and VATSIM itself is my role now.

That's nice, and worth what John Nance Garner attributed to his penultimate office.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]That is, not to mention dealing with individual controllers that have issues (the details of which one will never see on a forum post), dealing with all of the promotions, staff changes, and for lack of a better term - revolts (small and large) that arise within my Region.[/quote]

If you have so many controller issues and revolts within your Division that it requires an ATD for every 4 or so ARTCCs, then the average VATSIM controller is a melodramatic idiot or there's a serious problem going on which deserves major turnover. (But since everyone keeps saying that our ATMs are so eminently qualified for their jobs, I'll claim the former.) Either way, if there's that much work to be done, there's a bigger problem at hand.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I do, however, infer from your post that you must believe that ATDs, and VATUSA staff in general, do nothing at all.  And in case I have not made this painfully obvious in my posts above, I find that implication insulting.[/quote]

I don't claim that you do nothing at all. But to be candid I do believe that you overstate the requirements of your job, and if you find that insulting - welcome to America. Everyone seems to be insulted about something or other. Let me insult you further, if you don't mind. I have a VP of Operations that does something similar to VATUSA1 - he has about a dozen ATM-equivalents, with no more than two assistants each, which rolls down to 2,200 members who log more time, take more exams, etc. than all of VATUSA. (I don't think you guys have 2,000 active controllers, but I could be wrong.) He has no intermediate layer equivalent to VATUSA's ATDs, and yet everything seems to work well?

Why is that? That's my frame of reference coming into this discussion - I see volunteer organizations that can operate effectively at much larger scales than VATUSA. So let's not get insulted, let's find out why that is.

Cheers!

Luke

[Luke Kolin]

Consider the possibility (just a possibility) that the current leadership has a more efficient use of their staff than previous administrations.  A less efficient leadership may require more personnel to achieve the same goal, and if we encounter that in the future, I should hope that raising the staffing levels to achieve the GOAL is the priority, and not to keep the roster in check due to some ill-founded "limit" on the number of staff members allowed.

If a new leadership requires more people to do the same task, then perhaps they're not the right people for the job?

If I became VATUSA1 and decided I needed 25 people to function effectively, would that be OK? How about 100? 500? Clearly you realize that there's some absolute numbers that make sense (and others that don't), rather than applying a nebulous form of relevance that prevents us from making any sort of claims whether VATUSA is under- or over-staffed.

Management in the real world is all about making decisions and judgment calls about how many people are adequate for a team and working within that framework. And there are always external parties who are more than willing to make that call for you if you come back with nebulous claims about how it's impossible to come up with a concrete number. They are very helpful that way!

Cheers!

Luke

[Luke Kolin]

So I answered your question, and you responded with not accidental, but intentional insults.  Along with a stinging (albeit funny) prod at my answer.

To be entirely candid, I think your answer was rather vaporous. To describe your role as helping others "achieve their visions" says next to nothing, and if the ATMs are experienced and familiar with Division policies (and I expect they are) then I'm not sure how much is required on that front.

Again, I don't mean to deliberately insult you, only to tweak you a little that you pull out the insult card and ask you the same question as I'd ask you if I was interviewing you for a job and you had this on your resume - so what did you actually do? I'm still trying to find out what the ATDs do that is so critical to VATUSA.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Regardless, I wouldn't mind discussing all of these details one at a time if I had the impression that you respected my opinions and input as well, but I don't get that impression.[/quote]

I do respect your opinions, but let me add a caveat. You're in a bureaucratic position defending its existence, and that always requires taking with a grain of salt. There's likely no malice involved, but people who have come up in a particular system accept its structure and are more willing to defend it.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Additionally, I am still unclear as to what the goals of these comments are.  Is it to say that VATUSA is inefficient?  Is that it?  If that's it, then I will do my part to reverse this trend by getting off the forums, as my participation in them over the past two days has been nothing short of a complete waste of time.[/quote]

Yes. There's folks questioning how many staff VATUSA truly needs (and probably VATSIM in general). I don't think getting off the forums will do anything. Why do you think it will - the conjecture is that you could spend 100% of your time on the forums, or Facebook or watching Oprah and life would continue. It's nothing personal about you, by the way - it would be the same no matter who was an ATD.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]In the current administration, and with the current workload, I believe our staffing level is adequate, and I know that my colleagues are doing their jobs. I think that should suffice for any organization.[/quote]

In most bureaucracies, I am sure the people involved are doing their jobs. But as part of that process, do they have the perspective to determine if their jobs are worth doing in the first place? That's the question - and based on your answer it's a possibility you don't seem to have considered.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]But since you are involved with both, perhaps you can enlighten us all as to "why that is."[/quote]

It's a reasonably well-known virtual airline. Why that is? Let me throw out the simplest possibility - we operate well without the equivalent of an ATD position because the position isn't really required. Occam's Razor and all that....

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I answered your question.  You're welcome.[/quote]

Thank you. Hopefully I have answered some of yours.

Cheers!

Luke

[Pan Lalas]

It appears that the thread got out of context and ended up us a personal issue which was not my intention. Tom and David, I understand you got offended although you shouldn't because I'm not referring to the current staff. I thought it was obvious since I clearly said that with 8 people right now the job is done which obviously includes you. I also emphasized by saying "Which makes me wonder about the necessity for the majority of those positions when they were filled.". Please _do_ notice the _past_ tense. We used to have an Assistant of the events, an Assistant of the training in case you guys have forgotten it. The majority of the ARTCCs have an events coordinator. We really needed an assistant to the Events supervisor (sorry I don't remember the name of the position)? You know there are VATSIM structures out the there with 5-6 assistants all doing the exact same thing? Is all this really necessary? Or is it just for the fancy title?

[Bruce Clingan]

I would like to note, and I think this was the direction of a poster prior to me, I was in no way referring to vatusa staff.

[Tom Seeley]

This is my last visit to this thread. For those who insist that if they don't see what staff members are doing, they're doing nothing, I have responsibility for eight ARTCCs. Among the routine tasks that I deal with are these:

The turnover of ATMs in the network is relatively frequent. Each time that happens, the ATD may participate in an exit interview, and at least discuss possible replacement recommendations from the outgoing ATM. He will then cause an announcement to be posted, review applications, conduct interviews each of which lasts 30 minutes or more, make a selection, install that individual, and provide support and orientation while the new ATM settles in.

Every ARTCC experiences occasional problem controllers at one time or another; some more often depending upon their size and complexity. These generally require intervention and or support of the ATD; he may mediate disputes, prepare evidence to present to a DCRM, and remain engaged in the resolution of the dispute.

Pilots occasionally make complaints regarding controller actions or ARTCC policy. These are generally settled with explanation or possibly some revision of standard practices. The process involves multiple emails, possible meetings, and if a revision of policy, review and approval.

ATDs review proposed SOP submitted by ARTCCs for alignment with VATUSA, VATNA and VATSIM policy such as the GRP. In some cases this may require consultation with the director and/or meetings.

ATDs review and approve proposed LOAs. In some cases these can require considerable input and revision, as in the case of LOAs with a VSOA. In one recent such matter, at least 60 emails were involved between a VSOA, an ARTCC, the ATD, VATUSA and VATSIM.

ATDs conduct regular checks of the VATUSA member management system to ensure that members do not wait unreasonable time for transfers and other matters.

ATDs conduct background checks and approve ARTCC senior staff selections.

ATDs maintain a presence in both VATUSA and VATSIM forums, and regularly respond to items of importance to their area of responsibility.

New members to the network consistently fail to read instructions or make appropriate selections when signing up initially. ATD's receive frequent email from individuals who signed up with the wrong facility, or don't like waiting for training, or don't think a test was fair, or don't want to wait seven days, or whatever. These emails are commonly received just about every day. Each of them requires a little research to determine the facts, may require checking with other staff, and each of them requires a response.

I've been called upon while an ATD to create a sector file from scratch, SOP, POF file, and other data that goes into establishing an ARTCC/FIR where none existed before.

I do my utmost to provide immediate response to emails from ARTCC staff. Not a day goes by that email of one sort or another is not received. It is my goal to answer them all without delay.

I've been an ATD for several years in two regions, before which I was an ATM. At one point one major ARTCC had internal strife and conflict to the point that its upper staff all left. It fell to me to fill in as interim ATM for almost two months while also fulfilling ATD responsibilities for the other ARTCCs in my region.

Aside from these ATD matters, I am a VATSIM supervisor and generate a number of hours in that endeavor each month. For the year 2010 that was 180 hours. I also have visiting privileges in nine facilities; some because they are in my region and I can help with events etc., others where I have been assigned before or facilities I instruct in; during 2010 I logged 340 hours controlling, mostly at Center level. As mentioned I also continue to instruct students. And I fly online, a regular member of two active vAs.

For more than a year I have been the interim VATUSA training director. As such I review every instructor application  and upon approval process the instructor appointment; same for instructor removals, TA applications, appointments and removals. I am slowly revising the online TRC to bring it up to date and correct minor errors. I also maintain, along with Gary, the VATUSA test banks.

Visible on the network? Not that it matters one bit but yeah, I'd say so. Why do I and others do this, aside from our rabid desire to have so-called fancy titles? Good question ... it's becoming less and less worthwhile.

[Scott DeWoody]

It appears that alot of people have alot of different ideas as to what VATSIM is all about.  My view is VATSIM is here to provide a service to those that want to either fly or control online in order to enhance their Flight Sim experience, like interaction with others that have the same interests.  Like I said, that is my view.  I've been doing flight simulators for a very long time, from the desk top ones, to the "real" ones (if that makes sense).  Umm Lockheed's P3 simulators.  Where I enjoy the flying aspect, there was always something missing.... the interaction with others whether it be talking with other pilots flying online at the same time, or having to deal (not meant in a bad way) with ATC.  Then I found VATSIM when I was laid up after major surgery, so I joined, and as David said, started as just a pilot, then got intrigued with ATC.  I've progressed up through the ranks, can't say worked, because I really enjoyed what I was doing, and didn't really consider it work.  I've held many positions both on the ATC and pilot side of the system, not because I was seeking titles, but for the most part, I was asked to help... I was asked to be the TA at Miami, I was aksed to be the CEO at AvA, I was asked to be the Dep Division Dir at Thailand....   so I helped where I could....  BUT.....  I still love to fly, so I do, and as I stated in a privious post, I find the time  while I'm flying, (thanks to whoever invented autopilot) to attend to my administrative duties as CEO of a VA that is, I"m thinking as large as or bigger than VATUSA, and my staff position at ZMA.  I answer endless emails, deal with group dynamic issues, but none of those deter from my love of flying, and can all be handled on a daily basis while flying, whether it be a one hour hop from Miami to Atanta, or a 5 hour trip from Seattle to Honolulu.  

So that statement about what's the point of being on VATSIM if you are not going to fly or control..... makes sense to me.  (not pointing any fingers, just giving my view)