Oh no...

Ryan Geckler · « **on:** November 14, 2011, 10:20:07 AM »

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/FAA_T...s_205722-1.html

That's not good.

Rahul Parkar · « **Reply #1 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:25:57 AM »

Hmmm,

If this happens to go through, I'd assume that AirNav would be mainly out of business, Flightaware would probably cease giving out charts as well unless they happen to make enough from Advertising.

Skyvector may be in serious trouble after paying out to FlightPrep for licensing those patents.

AirCharts will most definitely lose US charts should the following go through.

(And those are just a few sites that make use of the free charts)

Of course, all of the above is only if the pricing structure is reasonable for smaller companies / websites.

And the VATSIM community, especially in the US will suffer should there not be a reliable free source of US charts.

Thanks FAA (if this happens, but then again, it's worth the question, aren't these charting costs already paid for by taxes, and they seem to have been doing fine so far...).

Cheers!
Rahul

Harold Rutila · « **Reply #2 on:** November 14, 2011, 12:13:32 PM »

This makes no sense. For 50 years the FAA has provided charts for free (except for the cost of shipping), and all of a sudden they terminate that service, switch to an all-online distribution, and then decide to start charging for it? What is this? There are so many online distributors who get the charts, house them on their own servers, and allow users to access them for free, which reduces the burden on the FAA servers. The more sensible thing would be to simply distribute the charts to such companies as Airnav, FlightAware, etc. and let them continue with their service (OH, and keep people employed at those locations, too). This is clearly another tax/fee hike that somebody in the DoT wants because they're completely incapable of doing any sort of budget management. Totally inexcusable!

Might be time for another petition just like we did with the AIRAC commercialization several years ago.

Jonathan Cox · « **Reply #3 on:** November 14, 2011, 01:06:28 PM »

Harold, that is a great idea. I would be HIGHLY interested in a petition. This angers and frightens me greatly that I might struggle to be able to continue to be a part of this great hobby. If skyvector goes down, I'm in real trouble, as I currently can't afford any paid subscriptions.

Don Desfosse · « **Reply #4 on:** November 14, 2011, 02:49:19 PM »

Guys, much more effective than petitions is to write your senators and congresscritters. This site is one of many that helps you identify their contact information pretty quickly: http://www.contactingthecongress.org I have already written mine; I urge you to write yours as well. As an AOPA member, I have also written AOPA (aopahq@aopa.org). And, I also wrote to the FAA at 9-AMC-Aerochart@faa.gov

Though I didn't specifically mention VATSIM, I spoke to using the data for nonprofit safety work. While I'm sure you can't all claim to be FAA Safety reps, many/most you can still modify my letter and refer to providing public presentations of safety-related data where you use the FAA information. Heck, you do this every time you train a student and/or help a pilot understand their charts.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Hello,
Dear Senator xxx,
Dear Representative xxx,

I just read a news article that the FAA will be discontinuing access to online charts for individuals, and will begin charging for this data, beginning April 5, 2012.

I currently use this data in several ways, all nonprofit. I use FAA chart data in the development and deployment of aviation safety training as an FAA FAASTeam Lead, and I also use it to give local training presentations on flight and air traffic control in the community.

Though I certainly understand the FAA's need to recoup some of the cost of producing and hosting the data, I know that the data is required to be produced, so it exists (notwithstanding any argument to reduce the amount of data/products available).

I would just sincerely ask that the FAA consider simply allowing free access to either individuals, or at the very least, folks who register with the FAA and demonstrate a legitimate nonprofit and/or safety and/or education related benefit, and allow the costs to be borne by the commercial enterprises that profit from the data.

[do not include the following if you are writing to the FAA] Would you help me influence the FAA to consider a proposal such as this?

Kind regards,

Don Desfosse[/quote]

Rahul Parkar · « **Reply #5 on:** November 14, 2011, 03:43:10 PM »

Well, holding the phone here...

Isn't "everything" (Using the term lightly) from the government "Including Charts as they are created by a subdivision of the FAA which is a government organization" public domain, therefore making us able to FOIA the charts should they become a "pay for item"

(Should have thought of this before)

Cheers!
Rahul

Nicholas Cavacini · « **Reply #6 on:** November 14, 2011, 04:02:07 PM »

Quote from: Rahul Parkar

Well, holding the phone here...

Isn't "everything" (Using the term lightly) from the government "Including Charts as they are created by a subdivision of the FAA which is a government organization" public domain, therefore making us able to FOIA the charts should they become a "pay for item"

(Should have thought of this before)

Cheers!
Rahul

Technical speaking, I believe yes. Will it happen, probably not. Also, do you know how long it takes to get a FOIA especially for charts that change often?

Rahul Parkar · « **Reply #7 on:** November 14, 2011, 04:21:15 PM »

My FOIA's (Done through those who live in the US) usually come through within 1-2 weeks.

Cheers!
Rahul

Don Desfosse · « **Reply #8 on:** November 14, 2011, 04:49:43 PM »

Do you get them as electronic attachments? I wonder how "the system" will deal with an extra 200,000 FOIA requests a week!

Rahul Parkar · « **Reply #9 on:** November 14, 2011, 04:58:13 PM »

My people get them as CDs,

And we could limit it to one per ARTCC which is then sent out and uploaded to a central location by said ARTCC, note that not all charts change every 28 days too.

The system will probably crash, you do remember it is a government system

Cheers!
Rahul

Ryan Geckler · « **Reply #10 on:** November 14, 2011, 05:39:23 PM »

Or just make a schedule.. each ARTCC requests the charts on a rotating basis.

Nicholas Cavacini · « **Reply #11 on:** November 14, 2011, 05:59:20 PM »

Weird, all requests that I've heard of took 1+ month to get. But... if we crash the system, they either get a better system (probably won't happen), release the charts, or some other third option. XD

Harold Rutila · « **Reply #12 on:** November 14, 2011, 06:36:29 PM »

What I meant by petition was to petition Congress members, not necessarily sign a huge email or anything. Had to make it quick because I was on a mobile .

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought at one time you could get the charts directly from the FAA for the cost of shipping. Am I wrong or...?

I was also thinking about the FOIA requirement for these plates. I guess the real question is "Can a government bureaucracy can charge for products it creates using taxpayer dollars? It's almost like they're double taxing us.

Does DoT charge for anything else? Road maps? Waterways? I don't know how those systems work. I can't think of anything I have to buy from our government bureaucracies, though.

Rahul Parkar · « **Reply #13 on:** November 14, 2011, 06:56:29 PM »

Well we wouldn't be buying them.

They wouldn't be sold for individual access according to the article.

Cheers!
Rahul

Ryan Geckler · « **Reply #14 on:** November 14, 2011, 07:12:59 PM »

Could some sort of educational deal be reached between VATSIM/VATUSA and FAA? Of course, it'd have to be on a regulated website, but it'd be better than nothing.