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Richard Jenkins

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« Reply #105 on: February 10, 2010, 09:39:30 PM »
Quote from: Luke Kolin
If I thought you were serious....

Cheers!

Luke

Speaking for myself.....

I think the pitch could be made. The idea that VATSIM could survive in the years to come off the already generous donation of the current developers is doubtful. The vroute model has shown that a payware version of something will work on VATSIM. Now obviously the new client would need to have full functionality and maybe a toy or two to attract a following.

I know the vroute model works. VATSIM has benefited from it. If some coin going to you or some other developer to keep you writing and maintaining code so the masses could enjoy VATSIM for free, I am okay with that.

Andrew Podner

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« Reply #106 on: February 10, 2010, 09:39:44 PM »
Quote from: Michael Hodge Jr
There will never be stability unless you fix the underlying problem.

+1

Nicholas Taylor

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« Reply #107 on: February 10, 2010, 09:40:12 PM »
While I and most agree we need stability above and below for the middleman (VATUSA) to be stable, I think people have to realize this before they take the job. I've been at VATSIM for just over a half year and seen 3 different VATUSA1's. That is pretty bad. Whomever applies for VATUSA1 next needs to realize that there is not 100% perfection above. So maybe it's time to try and make a difference beyond one's division and give it a shot. When one meets resistance, don't quit, keep trying. It will work out [hopefully].

Andrew Podner

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« Reply #108 on: February 10, 2010, 09:45:05 PM »
Nicholas,

I thought and said the same thing in my interview, but you have to have the right tools available to you to be effective, if they aren't there, then the whole premise falls apart.  Resistance is a daily occurrence and all of us of have held the position were prepared for that.  But the issue is deeper than that.

Brian Sperduto

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« Reply #109 on: February 10, 2010, 09:46:54 PM »
Quote from: Brian Pryor
It was not intended to be a dig at anyone, it's a statement of my principles i've been taught as a leader and been in similiar wording through several leadership seminars.

The previous administration did plenty of good things for VATUSA and VATSIM, however what we needed then and now need more than ever is stability. This past administration with no disrespect, has not accomplished that task and further plagued us with instability.

While their intent is to enact change, whether that happens now or later, the members of VATUSA suffer now in the void these folks have left behind.
You know that is a fine principal and all but frankly it doesn't work.  I may not have agreed with the decision some of my predecessors made, heck I got fired by one of them but their hearts were in the right place and frankly its an insult to be trying to place blame on people who put some much effort into this.  I would invite you to try to spend just a week up in the meat grinder and see how you like it.  I had the privilege of working for three administrations (four if you count the few hours I worked for one person) these people dedicated countless hours to this hobby, a lot more then they should have.  Its really easy for everyone here to talk the talk saying that we need stability and all of this, spend some time in one of these guys shoes you will learn quick that this is a full time job on top of life, it just isn't that simple.

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« Reply #110 on: February 10, 2010, 09:53:03 PM »
When the title is more important then the job, then it is time to give up the title.

Richard Jenkins

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« Reply #111 on: February 10, 2010, 10:23:15 PM »
Quote from: Michael Hodge Jr
Richard,

It's all about perception. While USA3, I made a very conscience effort to try to stay on top of how I was perceived. Not by the people above me so much as the people below me. After all, I had 22 TA's looking up to me for advice, guidance, and suggestions, and if they felt like I was working against them as opposed to for them, then we would never get anything constructive accomplished. I was there to help them, not micromanage them. I was there to support them and assist when they needed. That's all my job entailed. The sad part is, is that there are some, myself included, that honestly feel as though the BOG/EC is working against them as opposed to for them.

Now we all know there are those staff members that don't do anything productive. We all know they shouldn't have the opportunity to hold some of the titles that they do, but they do, and for the most part, we can't change that. However, when the politics of this virtual organization get to the point where it's pushing the good people out of positions, then obviously it's an issue that should be looked at and addressed.

Respectfully,

-Mike

I agree. The staff face different concerns at the various levels. For me, I was faced with the issue that VATSIM couldn't deliver in a timely manner what it was selling on frontpage.

I was dragging new people in the frontdoor but we weren't getting them through the training process. It was frustrating for me. VATSIM never mandated the training programs we have today for ATC. Some divisions it actually takes longer to become a C1 than it does in the real world. Maybe not now.

The frustration level at the BoG/EC was the ever evolving hoops being mandated at the ARTCC/ACC/FIR and division level without the staffing or infrastructure to process all the new members. So we go to people and say you need to help us get these people through. We can't have TA's and ATM not showing up for weeks. As an example, we have used what are called shoppers to test the system. A fake a ccount basically. Some of our shoppers went up to 3 months waiting for OTS as visiting controllers, new students waiting weeks just to get the written. We have to be realistic and know that anyone who joins and then must wait weeks just to take it for a test drive is not going to stick around.

Support is a two-way road. Part of my job as president was to find money, software, and bandwidth. When you have declining new membership, and a perception by the public that VATSIM is full of ATC zealots, it makes it hard to sell. Sit in our shoes for a few minutes also. I can't tell you how many times I have been told to shut-up and stay out of it because I'm not in the "trenches" with the troops. Well, the troops aren't in my trench either. We face different issues and have to help each other with those issues. That is not happening. Asking a developer to sitdown and write 40,000+ lines of code for an organization that can only produce a few thousand students a year and only 400 or 500 C-1s per year  is incredibly hard. Especially when I had no hand in creating the hoops at the lower levels. I once had an ATM tell me if he was allowed he would reject 98% of his new students.  

I mentioned above that information flow is lacking here. Part of me is feels as though we need some sort of CRM software or something to track issues. Andrew's GRP access. I have no idea why he didn't have access but apparently he didn't. CRM software would  track "to-do" and keep cases open and elevate as they age. Andrew's issue would have elevated and more people would have been notified that his issue was not being resolved.

Michael Hodge Jr

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« Reply #112 on: February 10, 2010, 11:17:38 PM »
Quote from: Richard Jenkins
Support is a two-way road. Part of my job as president was to find money, software, and bandwidth. When you have declining new membership, and a perception by the public that VATSIM is full of ATC zealots, it makes it hard to sell. Sit in our shoes for a few minutes also. I can't tell you how many times I have been told to shut-up and stay out of it because I'm not in the "trenches" with the troops. Well, the troops aren't in my trench either. We face different issues and have to help each other with those issues. That is not happening.


Richard,

I agree and hear what your saying 100%!

So I bolded the portion of your statement which I feel is the core of all of this and the question has to be asked: "Why?". Obviously you (the BOG/Founders) are facing different problems then us (the divisions). The question is why aren't we helping each other. Why is there such a disconnect.

I've been talking so much of perception, and so if we recognize that our perception (as divisional staff, or in this case former) of the BOG/EC is not the most positive one, and also recognize that it is a two way street and the BOG/EC may feel the same about us, what do we need to do to change that perception? I know personally, where I got frustrated was when it felt like it COULD NOT be changed. However, I do acknowledge that the moment you say something "can't" be done, it "won't" be done.

-Mike

Jeremy Bucholz

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« Reply #113 on: February 10, 2010, 11:20:38 PM »
Quote from: Michael Hodge Jr
Richard,

Now we all know there are those staff members that don't do anything productive. We all know they shouldn't have the opportunity to hold some of the titles that they do, but they do, and for the most part, we can't change that. However, when the politics of this virtual organization get to the point where it's pushing the good people out of positions, then obviously it's an issue that should be looked at and addressed.

Respectfully,

-Mike

+1

I have known Mike and Rob for quite some time, and they are great people.  Not only are they very easy to get along with, they have the desire to volunteer their free time to make this place better.  I too was at one time one of these volunteers, and while I wasn't forced out of my position like my colleague was, the sickening politics that were transpiring in a VIRTUAL environment made me throw my hands up.  Why should those of us who actually care put up our time and effort when someone who only cares about as Rob put it, "the title", is put in front of us?  If there's one thing I learned from the military, it's that leaders can't be leaders if they're forced to follow, and that is what is happening to VATUSA today.

I AM a real life controller at one of the busiest towers in the country.

I USED to love to share my knowledge to those who wanted to be like the real thing.

I USED to be a VATSIM Instructor and teach students.

I USED to love giving virtual pilots a true experience.

I STOPPED because of virtual politics.....  

Does it make you turn your head a little and say hmmmmmm?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 11:21:32 PM by Jeremy Bucholz »

Thomas Flanary

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« Reply #114 on: February 11, 2010, 09:45:53 AM »
Lets go back before the GRP1&2 was forced down from the top, There are many more examples of this, but with each change that we've seen from the EC, the people down towards the bottom are throwing up their hands. You want me to re-write my training curriculum not once but twice? Oh, we've gotten rid of S1, now we have it again. Oh, S2 is back.

What has happened from the EC and BOG level, is an unprecedented amount of NON-COMMUNICATION. They see a problem, and rather than asking the ARTCCs how they think they could fix it, they come up with a solution amongst themselves and write a directive or statement.  And when ARTCCs, or VATUSA1/2/3/s want to contribute to the knowledge dump, the EC says "Your say doesn't matter anyways!". This is problem number 1.

Problem number 2 is caused by Problem number 1, where we have a constant rotation of 1/2/3, the people that applied previously to these positions feel shat on, over and over, because the people that are being chosen are all friends of the first guy who's up there. Or, thats how it appears. Well, that constant rotation also includes a constant rotation of policies, which this last group was actually pretty good at not doing, but if you go back a few VATUSA1's, there were alot more policies to be shoved.

Because of this problem, Problem number 3 arises.  You have a lack of coordination between administrations. One VATUSA group will be Pro ARTCC, the next will be Pro Region. One will be totally hands on, the next totally hands off. You have some who sit down and write the entire training website mostly by themself (Good work!) and some who ask the ARTCCs to do it, and submit their work.

I've said this for a long time now, if you want to raise money, then put a little "Donate Now" button with a chart of how much money is needed to run the VATSIM servers. I've done this for years on my website, and I've netted over 10 thousand dollars a year - and I only have 3,000 active members.

Sure, you could be like Vroute and charge for a client, but that's a chicken s**t way to do it, some people can't afford the upgrade. Instead, those who can would donate an equal amount of "help" towards the organization.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]When you have declining new membership, and a perception by the public that VATSIM is full of ATC zealots, it makes it hard to sell.[/quote]

If we have a declining membership, we could attribute this to many factors. But how many of those members are hard core pilots or controllers, and how many are becoming more hard core, even though the numbers may be diminishing.

You could consider me an ATC Zealot. However, I think you have a VATSIM success story on your hands. I started VATSIM when I was 13. I was a pilot first, then a controller. I fell in love with controlling. When I graduated High School, I went to Embry-Riddle. When I stepped foot into my classes, I was already an I1 on VATSIM, and while I didn't know absolutely everything, I knew 99%. All of my ATC courses I took, I was miles ahead of my classmates, who were just learning the ATC material for the first time. Got an A on every test without studying, and graduated with a degree in Aeronautics and minor in ATC. Now, I'll be working for the FAA soon as a controller, and I strongly believe that VATSIM had a major part to do with that. So when I teach my controllers, I teach them like I'd want to be taught, with realism and being true to the real thing. And 99% of them eat it up. I'm not one of the only one of these ATC zealots that have gone to the FAA. EZ from ZLA, Marc Sykes, and many other guys that I know. And personally, I couldn't of done it without VATSIM.

VATSIM truly can be a training environment for controllers or pilots. It's not just a game like we make it out to be, sometimes.

There is a significant lack of trust, respect and coordination from the BOG&EC to the normal controller/staff member/pilot. This has been caused by years of 'closed door' meetings on policies, and then the creation of these new policies. It's just like the work place, if Corporate tells you that the new policy is that you can't drink water from a paper cup because it's bad for the environment, you're going to be pissed off at corporate because you like your paper cups.

There have been no meeting notes posted, no topics of discussion, nothing, over the past several years. And to be honest, as  a staff member, I couldn't even tell you who is on either one of these boards. The only thing I know is that Harv Stein was up there, and so are you, Richard. But I only know that because I used to see him on the scopes, and I see you in the forums. And I see you on the forums helping members and actually providing positive advice.

Alot of the EC/BOG have a Holier 'than thou' attitude, and they feel that the need to communicate to the controllers/pilots/ARTCC Staff/Division Staff is nil. If you liken it to real world, the soldiers are the pilots and controllers. The Staff are the Lieutenants and the Divison staff are the Captains. Above them, in our present situation, you have Bryan, the Colonel, and then a series of Generals that never step foot into the field. If you never saw your General, ever, then how much would you trust them?



And the awesome part about this post, is if I ever wanted to run for another VATUSA1/2/3 position, it would probably be held against me because I speak my mind too much.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 09:59:24 AM by Tom Flanary »

Paul Biderman

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« Reply #115 on: February 11, 2010, 10:06:46 AM »
After reading parts of this thread the question that comes to my mind is "why do we need forums?"  It is really terrible for the VATUSA membership that these squabbles get dragged out into public forums.  Most everyone who has posted in this thread (and others like it scattered around the network) are supposedly adults right?  I wouldn't know it by reading this thread.

Disgusting.

Paul Byrne

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« Reply #116 on: February 11, 2010, 11:44:46 AM »
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]"why do we need forums?"[/quote]
So people can express their opinions.

This is the VATUSA forum and the majority of people posting here are VATUSA members. We are allowed to express and share our opinion whether you like it or not. If there was anything abusive or rude here, you can be guaranteed it would be locked. All I have seen in this topic is some passionate expression of opinion, which should be encouraged rather than belittled.

You should also read the entire thread, not just parts of it, so you can see the full story.

Cheers!

Matt Fuoco

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« Reply #117 on: February 11, 2010, 11:59:25 AM »
Quote from: Tom Flanary
However, I think you have a VATSIM success story on your hands. I started VATSIM when I was 13. I was a pilot first, then a controller. I fell in love with controlling. When I graduated High School, I went to Embry-Riddle. When I stepped foot into my classes, I was already an I1 on VATSIM, and while I didn't know absolutely everything, I knew 99%. All of my ATC courses I took, I was miles ahead of my classmates, who were just learning the ATC material for the first time. Got an A on every test without studying, and graduated with a degree in Aeronautics and minor in ATC. Now, I'll be working for the FAA soon as a controller, and I strongly believe that VATSIM had a major part to do with that. So when I teach my controllers, I teach them like I'd want to be taught, with realism and being true to the real thing. And 99% of them eat it up. I'm not one of the only one of these ATC zealots that have gone to the FAA. EZ from ZLA, Marc Sykes, and many other guys that I know. And personally, I couldn't of done it without VATSIM.

As a flight instructor...I think this is just great.  We strive for this type of enthusiasm and this is how we "breed" the next generation of  pilot, ATC or whatever. Getting someone interested in aviation as a career path has been tough.  There are many many reasons for this...really beyond the scope of this thread.  But, in any event...Tom, thank for sharing this story.  

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« Reply #118 on: February 11, 2010, 01:10:19 PM »
Quote from: Tom Flanary
Lets go back before the GRP1&2 was forced down from the top, There are many more examples of this, but with each change that we've seen from the EC, the people down towards the bottom are throwing up their hands. You want me to re-write my training curriculum not once but twice? Oh, we've gotten rid of S1, now we have it again. Oh, S2 is back.

What has happened from the EC and BOG level, is an unprecedented amount of NON-COMMUNICATION. They see a problem, and rather than asking the ARTCCs how they think they could fix it, they come up with a solution amongst themselves and write a directive or statement.  And when ARTCCs, or VATUSA1/2/3/s want to contribute to the knowledge dump, the EC says "Your say doesn't matter anyways!". This is problem number 1.

Problem number 2 is caused by Problem number 1, where we have a constant rotation of 1/2/3, the people that applied previously to these positions feel shat on, over and over, because the people that are being chosen are all friends of the first guy who's up there. Or, thats how it appears. Well, that constant rotation also includes a constant rotation of policies, which this last group was actually pretty good at not doing, but if you go back a few VATUSA1's, there were alot more policies to be shoved.

Because of this problem, Problem number 3 arises.  You have a lack of coordination between administrations. One VATUSA group will be Pro ARTCC, the next will be Pro Region. One will be totally hands on, the next totally hands off. You have some who sit down and write the entire training website mostly by themself (Good work!) and some who ask the ARTCCs to do it, and submit their work.

I've said this for a long time now, if you want to raise money, then put a little "Donate Now" button with a chart of how much money is needed to run the VATSIM servers. I've done this for years on my website, and I've netted over 10 thousand dollars a year - and I only have 3,000 active members.

Sure, you could be like Vroute and charge for a client, but that's a chicken s**t way to do it, some people can't afford the upgrade. Instead, those who can would donate an equal amount of "help" towards the organization.



If we have a declining membership, we could attribute this to many factors. But how many of those members are hard core pilots or controllers, and how many are becoming more hard core, even though the numbers may be diminishing.

You could consider me an ATC Zealot. However, I think you have a VATSIM success story on your hands. I started VATSIM when I was 13. I was a pilot first, then a controller. I fell in love with controlling. When I graduated High School, I went to Embry-Riddle. When I stepped foot into my classes, I was already an I1 on VATSIM, and while I didn't know absolutely everything, I knew 99%. All of my ATC courses I took, I was miles ahead of my classmates, who were just learning the ATC material for the first time. Got an A on every test without studying, and graduated with a degree in Aeronautics and minor in ATC. Now, I'll be working for the FAA soon as a controller, and I strongly believe that VATSIM had a major part to do with that. So when I teach my controllers, I teach them like I'd want to be taught, with realism and being true to the real thing. And 99% of them eat it up. I'm not one of the only one of these ATC zealots that have gone to the FAA. EZ from ZLA, Marc Sykes, and many other guys that I know. And personally, I couldn't of done it without VATSIM.

VATSIM truly can be a training environment for controllers or pilots. It's not just a game like we make it out to be, sometimes.

There is a significant lack of trust, respect and coordination from the BOG&EC to the normal controller/staff member/pilot. This has been caused by years of 'closed door' meetings on policies, and then the creation of these new policies. It's just like the work place, if Corporate tells you that the new policy is that you can't drink water from a paper cup because it's bad for the environment, you're going to be pissed off at corporate because you like your paper cups.

There have been no meeting notes posted, no topics of discussion, nothing, over the past several years. And to be honest, as  a staff member, I couldn't even tell you who is on either one of these boards. The only thing I know is that Harv Stein was up there, and so are you, Richard. But I only know that because I used to see him on the scopes, and I see you in the forums. And I see you on the forums helping members and actually providing positive advice.

Alot of the EC/BOG have a Holier 'than thou' attitude, and they feel that the need to communicate to the controllers/pilots/ARTCC Staff/Division Staff is nil. If you liken it to real world, the soldiers are the pilots and controllers. The Staff are the Lieutenants and the Divison staff are the Captains. Above them, in our present situation, you have Bryan, the Colonel, and then a series of Generals that never step foot into the field. If you never saw your General, ever, then how much would you trust them?



And the awesome part about this post, is if I ever wanted to run for another VATUSA1/2/3 position, it would probably be held against me because I speak my mind too much.

Sorry to re-quote the entire post, but you have hit my thoughts absolutely dead on, Tom. Having met you before and experiencing much the same things as you, I could not have said it any better.

We seem to be classified as "too much" for this network, but if you learn to accept the ways of VATSIM and work with it, you can do amazing things for the network and still be realistic about it. It's taken me many years and hardships here to figure that out, but I still owe everything to the network for what it has done for me on a personal level.

Let's just forget the political stuff here and move towards creating this collectively - there really shouldn't be anything wrong with that...


Regards,

AJ

Nicholas Reed

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« Reply #119 on: February 11, 2010, 06:07:14 PM »
Don't worry... Be happy.